For Good Posture, DO NOT PULL SHOULDERS BACK!!!
September 5, 2012 118 Comments
This is NOT ideal – how long do you think he could sustain this for?
How many times have you been told you need to “Fix your posture – pull your shoulders back!”? I hear it said many times from parents and children, friends and relatives, even therapists tell people this…but nearly 99% of the time, this is the WRONG ADVICE!!!
So what exactly do you do?
The aims of this article is to:
1. Explain what good posture is
2. Explain why pulling your shoulders back is NOT the right thing to do
3. Give you some ideas of what to do to have better posture
For a video on a postural myth, click here
What is good posture?
Beautiful Posture in Heels
I think for most people, we can certainly see “good posture” better than we can describe it. Sometimes things don’t “look right”, other times it is subtle and still other times people might think it looks good and it isn’t (from my point of view).
I can reference lots of definitions that would answer the question”what is good posture?” but I think the most practical definition is the one I go by…it is where your body is most efficient at doing what you ask it to do.
You see, posture isn’t a static activity. Even the Buckingham Palace guards have to breathe so movement is occurring all the time. It isn’t a tense posture but it isn’t “loose” either. It shouldn’t be hard work but it does take a little bit of effort (sometimes).
I think good posture is more a thinking activity…but thinking about it only every now and then. People with “good posture” have probably worked at it more than you – or have been shown how to work at it more efficiently than you have! I will show you later what I mean 🙂
Why pulling your shoulders back is NOT the right thing to do
So why do you get told to pull your shoulders back? Probably because your shoulders are forward… I am not being funny, it is true.
But I wouldn’t be The Physio Detective if I didn’t ask “why are your shoulders forward?”. In fact, all good therapists worth their salt ask questions like “Why?” and “How?”.
You see, your shoulders sit on a rib cage and your rib cage is more like a cylinder than a rectangle – it has curved surfaces. On top of this cylinder sits your shoulder blades – and they only sit on their because muscles hold them in place – there is no “true” joint surface like some other joints have. Therefore, your shoulders sit where the sum of the forces of gravity, your soft tissues (muscles and ligaments) and your bones put them.
Example 1:
Challenge – keep the pen vertical as you move you hand!
- Can you do it?
An example of how this works is for you to hold a pen in between your fingers. Allow it to hang vertically. Now, you should be able to hold the pen still and move your hand and arm up and over the pen without it pointing away from the ground. You can only do this if you hold onto the pen with *just* the right amount of force. Too hard and your pen will tilt as you move your hand. Too soft and you will drop the pen. That is how posture and your shoulders are related!
Therefore, if you have shoulders that are forwards, it is simply reacting to the foundation on which it sits on – your rib cage must be tilted backwards or your muscles are pulling you forwards because you love “Chest Day” at the gym and you skip “Back Day” or whatever reason you have.
Simply pulling your shoulders back against the sum of these forces just adds more forces – which increases tension in your body. The 2 most common reasons I hear about why people “gave up” on their posture correction exercises are:
1. It’s too much effort – pulling against forces is tiring – it is no wonder that it is an effort…
2. It hurts too much – adding tension to painful structures like muscles and joints can make them sore – why do it?
Example 2:
In this example, I have asked our willing volunteer Lauren to stand in a classic “sway back” posture and then pull her shoulders back. Please note that her spinal angle doesn’t change and pulling your shoulders back can actually make your neck poke out more!
Note that her posture doesn’t improve!!
A typical “bad posture”
Example 3:
In this example, I have asked Lauren to pull her tummy in, bum in, chest out and shoulders back – I think you will agree that it doesn’t look right!
Not that ideal either huh?
Simply pulling your shoulders back is not likely to be the correct solution
The Lessons Learned About “Shoulders Back”?
1. Your shoulders sit passively on your rib cage – don’t force them back or forwards
2. Your shoulders are mainly affected by your rib cage position – maybe look at how your rib cage is sitting
3. Adding more effort is not sustainable or usually effective
4. Simply pulling your shoulders back is not likely to be the correct solution
Some Steps Towards Better Posture…
Ok, there are LOTS that I do to get this right – explaining it on here would take a whole website’s worth of blog posts to explain it all. However, let me hit the highlights…
1. Getting posture perfect is not achievable
It simply is impossible to have “perfect posture”…I can always find *something* that is not “ideal”. I don’t ever ask my patients to have perfect posture. My patients never ask me to get them back “perfect again” – if they do, I correct them 🙂
I prefer to take the view that posture is a sliding scale and that it is “about right” for the task. Yes there are things that can be better but ultimately, if you can achieve the task you want to with minimal strain to your body, then that’s cool. Obviously bending over to pick up a pen off the floor has a LOT more variability and I am less fussy about how you do this than if you were to try to deadlift 150kg! The more load you have, the less room for error you have.
2. Test and Retest
This is one of the greatest learning tools I can give a patient. Nearly all of my patients want me to “check that I am doing it right”…with posture, I ask them to tell me if they have it right. I can’t be there to hold your hand all the time so I try to take the time to teach you how to check for yourself. Here’s how you do it…
1. Choose a movement or activity that “hurts” or you have stiffness with or decreased movement. e.g. turning your head. You can even choose a resisted exercise like lifting 2kg or having a partner push on you
2. Note the effort it takes to do the movement – is your neck sore? Can you turn as far? How much effort is it to lift 2kg?
3. Correct your posture to what you think is ideal
4. Retest steps 1 and 2 – is it easier or less painful? If it is, you are closer to a better posture for that task. If it isn’t, then either you haven’t got it right or it isn’t right for you.
When I am with my patients, I make sure we find what these tasks are so they can test and restest at home and work.
3. Your Performance Will Improve
This is similar to the point above. Some people don’t have pain, they just can’t progress in their exercises or they can’t go longer at something – sometimes your posture can affect this!
Some quick examples of how changing someone’s posture has helped
1. Hockey player who was dropped from taking “short corners” because she couldn’t push the ball out hard and fast enough for the play – I changed how she set up for the shot. The end result? A stronger push out!
2. Elite level Rugby player constantly getting injured. Had been doing “core” work since schoolboy rugby. Changing how he set himself to do his exercises, weights and even tackling opened his eyes to the power of good posture. He was an open-side flanker (whose main job is to tackle and then get the ball). I told him to set for a tackle and then I pushed him over with one hand. He was horrified. I showed him how to set for a tackle differently and I couldn’t budge him – I had at least 30kg and 6 inches in height on this guy!!
3. Lots of patients who have pain turning their head to check for traffic. I check their sitting posture. One minute they can barely turn 30 degrees. Change their posture, they can turn nearly 90 degrees. Obviously for them, they know they are in the right posture when they can turn their head properly!
4. Friends who have trouble lifting a weight, especially something like a deadlift. Setting the feet, ankles, knees, hips, back, shoulders and neck into more efficient positions allow the body to generate more force.
Basically, the more efficient the posture, the more efficient the performance!
4. Some Cues I Ask My Patients To Think About
Here are some trade secrets for you 🙂
1. The breast bone and the pubic bone (in general) should line up vertically one on top of the other
2. Your pelvis should be in neutral – neither tilted in or out
3. Your back and neck should have a gentle lordosis and your thoracic spine (between your shoulder blades) should have a gentle kyphosis (rounded). This is normal. A flat back between your shoulder blades is NOT normal
4. I ask my patients to over-exaggerate the posture they need to be in – really work hard at it…then imagine that they are a puppet pulled into the air as the “grow taller”. Once they are there, gently relax so they keep their alignment but decrease the tension in their body. This works really well 🙂
5. Changing posture will feel “wrong” – this is because your body has receptors in it that tell the brain where you are in 3D. Your brain doesn’t like listening to all the signals it gets so it has a mechanism to “turn down the volume” of some of the signals it gets. This includes where you are in 3D. So any change turns the volume up and keeps letting you know that you are “not at your usual spot”. most people move to “turn the volume down” (feel back to their usual normal) but then nothing changes. Only through consistent repetition will your brain learn what the new “normal” should be. That is why posture is a thinking exercise that should be done every now and then to train the brain where you should be!
A Video Example…
Summary:
I can go on and on about posture and other topics but this article is nearly 2000 words now!
The take home message is simply
Don’t pull the shoulders back – put your rib cage in such a way that your shoulder sit properly
Putting your rib cage in the right position requires lots of things to be checked – joints, muscles, nerves, coordination, bone shape (yes, crooked bones can cause bad posture!). Sometimes the problem is very close to the shoulders, sometimes it is from the feet. Basically it can be because of any joint in the body – I like to check posture from the feet up or the head down – there is no point being “holistic” if you don’t practice what you preach!
About Antony Lo
The Physio Detective 
Any advice to someone who sits in an office chair 40 + hours per week? I get a lot of physical activity (work out 7 days a week for at least an hour). I find that I feel achy by Friday after sitting in this chair. I am constantly trying to improve my posture while sitting and find my posture keeps returning to the same hunched over position. By the way I found your article to be highly informative and would welcome another 2000 words. Thanks for the infomation!
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Thanks Michelle. I believe research has shown that you will be healthier if you move for even 1min (?) every 30mins. That has apparently more health benefit than 390-60mins of exercise in one hit every day.
Regularly move and try to adopt the postures in the blog post without excessive muscle tension 🙂
Try those things and let me know how you go. Otherwise try to find someone who understands to ESP…sad,y, I haven’t met many who offer similar advice to me which is why I was prompted to write the blog post! All the standard stuff they write about is technically correct but hard to implement…sitting should be comfortable for 30mins…then get up and do 5 squats or something and go for a short walk 🙂
Cheers
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Then why all these qualified practicioners and doctors do insist that someone should pull shoulders back? They even tape tha shoulders to remain pulled back! I m a little comfused here… Thanks
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I don’t know why they do that. 😦
Obviously when you slouch, your shoulders will round but pulling then back doesn’t solve anything.
It is better to solve the real problem/s that cause the shoulders to round forwards. Very occasionally, I will get someone who genuinely needs to pull their shoulders back a bit. Otherwise, it is rarely used as a cue.
Cheers
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So when you go to a physical therapist, how do you know if you’re truly one of the people who genuinely needs to pull their shoulders back a bit or if you just need to change your posture? My shoulders are rounded (especially the right one), and I just started seeing a PT a couple weeks ago for some numbness near my right shoulder blade. We’re working on mainly exercises to stretch out the muscles in my chest, strengthen the muscles in my back and pull the shoulders back as well as a stretch for the median/ulnar nerve; and this week she did tape my shoulders so I remember to keep them back. I’ve always tried to maintain a “good posture” (emphasis on the tried and the quotes around good posture) despite many hours sitting at a desk, but I still get tired from so many hours of sitting despite frequently changing positions (sometimes using the backrest, sometimes not, changing chair height, etc.) and trying to set timers when I can to make sure I get up and walk around.
This week at the PT, I asked her to check my sitting posture to see if it is good for typing, and she just said to make sure that I don’t arch my back too much. (Not her exact words, but she was basically saying the lumbar was curved too much.) I’m thinking the slightly exaggerated lumbar position was a result of my trying to “sit up straight.” I tucked under a little, and she said that was good; but, basically, it’s hard for me to tell where the right midpoint is between too curved and too flat and figure out where my upper back/shoulder area should be in relation to all of this where I’m sitting.
I wish we’d work on that more because I don’t want poor posture to cause more problems later, but it’s hard to train my body to know what feels right; but I suppose I’m doing okay if she isn’t correcting my posture during the exercises, especially since I keep checking in. Oh, well, I’ll figure it out eventually and maybe go to a personal trainer for some feedback when I can afford it after everything is balanced out.
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Hi Meredith. It is best to base the success or failure of advice on results.
You can use manual muscle testing, range of motion, pain or a task to determine if the advice is good for you. All my advice in person is accompanied by testing that shows whether it is working or not.
You can’t base it on effort because it takes effort to make a positive change!
Maybe I will write a blog post on how to sit correctly.
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roll up a towel and put it on the back rest of the chair in between your shoudler blades
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And how will this improve your posture? Can you post some photos to show us how it works?
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Any tips for someone who has scoliosis in the upper back, rolled shoulders, and a forward tilted head? I am very very anal about my bad posture and I want to fix it soo soo bad! I go in to meetings all the time and I feel super conscious about my tilted head especially. I would really really like to fix it! I have recently tried wearing a back brace and that appears to help while I am sitting but I want it all to get better.
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It is a difficult question. Ultimately, you want to know if the bones are making your posture that way or the muscles. If it is the bones, you have a very hard job ahead of you. If muscles, see a Physio who knows how to rebalance them and strengthen the right ones.
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What is a physio?
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Physical Therapist.
Why do you keep trying to link to a product for?
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Hello,
I have an elderly father who is getting stronger after a long stay in the hospital. But I am noticing he is really rolling his shoulders forward and starting to stoop more? Is there anything I can do to help him get stronger and stand tall. I thought a brace would help him to remember to think about his posture. thanks,
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Hi. It is a difficult situation. I don’t know know much about your dad and what he is recovering from.
However, most people who have just gotten out of hospital sit around a lot. You can brace hon all you like but noting beats movement and activity.
If you want something to change, you have to make it happen. This requires determination and consistent action.
Keep encouraging him to move and get stronger. Get a Physio to come to the house and make him an exercise program.
Something has to happen. If he sits all day, his posture will suffer significantly.
Thanks for the question
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Thanks for the article. Can u post link
To video showing proper adjustment of
rib cage to correct pisture?
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Hi Pete. It is not easy to do because different people need different cues and corrections and that can come from a y joint / region in the body. I have some posture videos but not enough. Am working on it 🙂
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Hi, thanks for sharing a very good article. I am 21 years old and i have a really bad posture, straight neck, flat back between shoulders and a reduced lumbar curve. And i was suggested the same thing pull your shoulders back which had adverse effects on my thoracic curve. I would request you to please suggest some exercises that don’t screw up my posture anymore but actually improve it. Thanks!!!
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Hi rishi. It is difficult to tell you what to do because I don’t know you nor can I see how you respond. So best to find someone who can learn what to do and teach you. Cheers
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Pingback: Preventing Neck Pain When Exercising / Working Out – Posture!!! | The Physio Detective
Is it safe to use a posture corrector? please give me advice. I am planning to buy one. Thanks in advance.
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Hi Claire Ann. I am not sure what type of posture corrector you wish to buy, Have you read the blog post above? I do not usually recommend a posture corrector but rather learning how to get into an efficient posture and learn how to get stronger in that position. Thanks!
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Sorry if I seem stupid but I almost feel like I should pick up my shoulders and let my neck sort of sink into them because I used to basically just drop them and push them back. Should I still drop them but not pull them back because then I feel like my neck is longer and my head is more forward.
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It is hard to say for you Stephen. Take a photo of your normal posture then take a photo of your corrected posture. Which looks better?
Would you consider sending them to me?
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Should you pick up your shoulders to make your neck shorter and less stretched/forward or just let them fall and not hold them in place
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Different people need different things. You should get into a good position then use the least amount of effort to maintain that position. You may need extra stretches or training 🙂
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I see what you mean. I think its a better position for me to lift my shoulders a bit because I feel less strain on my neck and it is not that far forward. I have taken picture. It looks much more natural so I just need to get comfortable then I guess.
Thanks for this post. I always assumed that shoulders being “back and down” was the begin all end all solution but I never had good posture with that idea. It made my neck look longer and it was too far forward plus I never felt comfortable with it anyway
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No problem. Posture is very hard to get right and the info on the Internet looks the same but doesn’t explain the nuances.
Good luck 🙂
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My toddler 20 months old walks with his shoulders back and chest out, he don’t look like nothing I’ve googled “bird chest” no hump back… He looks “normal” but “to much posture” . Hope you understand what I mean, I have forever googled and found nothing.
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In my experience Jill, it is difficult to tell about children at that age. If you are really concerned, ask a pediatrician to check him.
Does everyone who ever meets him mention it? If not, it is probably nothing. If he walks around like other children and plays and gets on ok, he is likely to be ok.
When in doubt, ask a doctor or physiotherapist to see him.
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Hiya,
I have had back pain for about 5 years now. Since the age of 18.
It was mostly upper back pain and soreness/stiffness between the shoulder blades. My neck also gets quite tense and stiff. For about 3 years now I have been cracking my neck over 10x a day, which relieves the tension for a while. Now I have started to get stiffness in the middle of my back just above the waist on my back.
Can you advise me of why this has all happened and what I can do to help it?
Thanks a lot xx
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Hi – I am sure you can appreciate that I won’t be able to give you specific advice about your problem – I simply don’t have enough information, I can’t examine you and therefore I can’t advise you.
I can tell you that it is a common group of symptoms that you are reporting.
I would recommend that you see a good physiotherapist and ask them to teach you the motor control exercises needed to prevent joint shearing and start strengthening under their guidance. The back is probably a similar thing.
Bottom line: Go see someone about it. If you want to, you can tell me what they said and ask questions about that… in the end, there are so many things that could be causing the issue that it wouldn’t be wise for me to guess.
Thanks for asking though 🙂
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Ralph
I’m getting alot of neck pain,I was told my shoulders come forward by physiotherapist &massage therapist.When I was younger my mother always told me to put my shoulders back,could this be the cause of neck pain
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Hi ?Ralph
The only way to tell if your shoulders coming forwards or back is causing your neck pain is to test it.
Does your neck pain improve when you put your shoulders back and up like I describe?
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I am 70 and have developed various inherited lower back problems including sciatica. I
want to continue to be active. I believe that working on my posture might help…other suggestions??
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Hi Nancy. There are many reasons why you might have sciatica. You really need to explore those reasons for why YOU have sciatica with a physical therapist (physiotherapist).
For example, you may have a narrowing of the passage of the spinal cord or where the nerves come out. You may have a disc that is leaking onto a nerve that is unhappy. You may have some arthritis or a bone spur that is scraping on a nerve root.
I look to see why the sciatica has developed, what to release, what posture to put you onto, what cues might be helpful to keep you in a good posture and how to move.
I know it isn’t very specific for you but those ideas are a good basis to ask questions of those people who can help you 🙂
Cheers
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Hi, I was born with congenital hip dysplacia in my left hip. I had surgery on it when I was a year old. Now, I’m in my mid 20s. That leg is just slightly shorter, but I have less range of motion in that hip so I’m rotated forward slightly on that side. It’s not noticeable unless a doctor/PT looks for it. However, i’m getting a lot of shoulder pain on that side with major headaches. I’ve unfortunately been trying to “pull my shoulders back” since they’re rounded inwards, but it seems to make my shoulder hurt more when I do. Any suggestions? Thank you!
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Lindsey
have you tried myofascial release treatments? they focus on the entire body as a ‘system of connected webs’ and certainly spend time ensuring areas like the pelvis are returned to a more balanced state. Certainly a good place to start.
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Thanks Pete. In the end, you need to solve/discover what is articular, what is myofascial and what is related to the brain. Are there any internal organ problems, are there any issues or beliefs that are contributing and is it simply a technique issue.
I still maintain that a good PT should be able to sort through all of that.
If there is a joint problem causing myofascial restriction, then it would be a long hard and expensive road to try rebalance those muscles – it wouldn’t work until the joint situation was fixed.
Once all those areas above have been addressed, then certainly a good body worker with a holistic view would be handy 🙂
Thanks again for your suggestion – it is certainly going to be better than what Lindsay’s current situation is.
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Hi Lindsey. Sorry for the late reply. Posture is a dynamic thing and you will need to find someone who understands what is wrong and how to solve it.
If the leg differences are that small, it probably isn’t that that is the problem…although I would check with some small pieces of wood under your foot before committing to that decision.
Can you send me video or photos of your posture? I am happy to review them if you are happy for them to be public.
Thanks
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Hi!
Thank you for your replies, they’re greatly appreciated!
I actually have just started some neuromuscular therapy which includes trigger point release. I am currently at Dynamic Therapy and they include it in my treatment once a week. They’re also working on building up my back strength. They started with the low back, and I’ll be looking to add my upper back/neck onto my prescription when I go in tomorrow since I’m now getting daily stiff aches in my upper traps/levator scapulae region. I have asked about a small heel lift, and they said they have thought about that but are waiting to see what happens at the end of treatment since it can have adverse affects on the spine, as well.
I would be happy to post some pictures of my posture, please just let me know where to post them. Thank you for your time!
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Hi Lindsay. You can post them on my Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/PhysioDetective.
Cheers 🙂
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HAY GUYZ
I WANT TO SAY THAT I HAVE JOINED EXERCISE GYM RECENTLY AND I HAVE NOTICED THAT MY SHOULDERS ARE COMING FORWARD
MY COACH TOLD ME THE SOLUTION THAT ‘DO BACK CHILLING ROD EXERCISE, AND BACK SHOULDERS EXERCISE A LITTLE MORE’
I WANT TO ASK U THAT IS THIS EXERCISE HELPFUL FOR ME OR NOT ?
AND MAKING MY POSTURE STRAIGHT AS SHOWN BY YOU IN THIRD PICTURE WILL HELP ME OR NOT?
AND THANX FOR THE POST
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Hi – NONE of the pictures are good to copy except Pippa Middleton’s
I can’t tell you what is good for you or not because I don’t know you nor is it moral, responsible or ethical for me to tell you. Please see someone about your posture. Thanks – I am sorry I can’t be more helpful on your specific problem
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Hi I have been trying to work on my posture, I typically slouch. Now that I have been correcting my posture my lower back feels very sore. Is that normal? And is there any way to alleviate the soreness?
Thank you,
Kay
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Hi Kay – the solution is not to make such massive corrections. You are likely leaning back or compressing your back too hard. it is hard to find someone who knows how to correct the posture in a relaxed way…don’t try so hard…or maybe get into a good position and then just relax without losing that position… I hope that helps 🙂
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Hi,
I have a terrible bad posture that I have been fighting all my life. I have gone to different physios but never have been able to help me. They keep giving me a set of exercises that I don’t feel they make a difference in the long run. Furthermore, they have always told me to bring my shoulders back and to use some posture correctors, that again they didn’t do any difference in my posture.
I love your article and I am very interested in learning more how to know which the best way to position my rib cage. Could you explain that part a little more?
Thanks
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Thanks so much for your posting. I came across it while searching for info that might help understanding why my 11-yr old daughter’s right shoulder drops and curves inward when performing the breaststroke. She is a competitive swimmer and dances ballet. Her shoulders don’t square during movement. I’ve also noticed it dropping in fotos out of the pool. She did RPG two years ago for this but not much help. She has slight scoliosis at the top near her neck hut nothing the orthopedist is worried about. She had also been using corrective inserts in her sneaker for six years now to adjust her foot orientation. Could this problem be structural or wholly postural. Thanks for any advice you might offer such as what would be the best type of therapist to look for. Thanks again. Frank
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Thanks frank. That is a tough question. I can’t really answer it except to say that she needs a good holistic assessment.
Let me know where you are from and I can see if I can. Locate someone who is trained in a similar way to me.
Cheera
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Ive been working at desk for years, maintaining a half decent posture can be a real challenge. Constantly find myself hunched, elbow on desk staring at my monitor. Considering a standing desk at this point…
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This article is absolutely useless – it offers no solutions.
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Hi Joe,
In what way does this article not offer solutions? I give an explanation of what some common problems are, some examples of cases and some things to try…sounds like possible solutions to me…
If you would like a personal solution, please feel free to book an appointment…I do Skype consultations.
Cheers
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i have a 16 year old son with poor posture, rounded shoulders. it hasn’t been a problem until recently. he is a baseball player, and mainly a pitcher, he is suffering from a shoulder impingment, which i know rounded shoulders isn’t helping. my question is, will crossfit training help strengthen, and correct his problem, or maybe yoga. he is a very talented pitcher and wants to get back to the position on the field that he was born to play.
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Hi dee. He needs to see someone who understands how to help throwers. Basically the correct program should help. Posture is like anything else a you become good at what you practice. I know I can help but I don’t know where you are or if the people where you are can help.
Let me know if you can’t find someone. Get someone who understands baseballers…I have helped throwers/pitchers who can pitch at 93mph so they aren’t slouches…
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I would recommend looking up Eric Cressey Performance in stamford ct
he specializes in overhead athlete performance especially baseball performance
he has tons of free videos and instructional vids. i would also recommend his Overhead Performance DVD set. It covers the full spectrum on the shoulders and progressions to improve performance by addressing weak points. Again tvis coming from working with baseball players.
– Pete
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Pingback: Is your posture letting you down?
Nice video and post
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Today I received my CrossOver Symmetry HIIT kit and can’t wait to
get started on their shoulder/scapular
programming.
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Hello, while researching for a good posture device i came across this website, thanks for the info very interesting. i have an ergonomic chair, but very often i find myself seating on it wrong, as we know these chairs are good but they can’t perform miracles, still one had to have good posture… i catch myself crossing one leg, sometimes even both, i lift my feet slightly off the ground too which makes me slowly to be in a bad posture..
Does anyone know of a a good and comfortable device to wear while working? my MRI shows a bulging disc and also a protrusion on another on the cervical area which i believe that good posture while spending 8 hrs in a chair must be essential for this therapy to work. thank you in advanced for any feedback!
Stella
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Hi Stella,
Honestly, the best posture you can have is the next posture. Even if I placed you in the absolutely perfect posture, you would not be able to or expected to maintain that posture – it is simply an unattainable goal. Even if you had the pain tolerance and mental discipline to remain like that, it wouldn’t be good for you.
“Perfect Posture” is a lie sold to those seeking the “ideal”. There are certainly principles to try and adhere to but honestly, don’t get caught up on the positions and the devices etc.
“Check-in” with yourself every now and then and move every 20-30mins – just getting up for a walk or 10 squats is good to break up the day.
As for your disc, I can’t really comment specifically about it because I don’t know you. I can tell you that there are people out there with terrible posture and no neck pain and there are people out there who are fit and healthy with “good posture” with discs bulging causing symptoms. It may be that the disc has nothing to do with your posture or symptoms…or it might…I know that isn’t helpful but I am trying to say that it may not be that bad…
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I am looking for a posture device that had sensors that activated every time one slouched. it
cost just under $100.
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Why?
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Hi. I need help. I went to physical therapy and am still doing my weak upper back exercise. My upper back is super weak and my chest goes down in front. As a result my shoulders are rotted forward. Very painful. I have been doing upper back strengthening exercises for over 2 months. I just started on the blue band.
My question is: how can I lift up my chest manually and try to improve my posture while the upper back is getting stronger.
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Hi Kim.
I can’t specifically comment on your case but I can talk in general.
Often the upper back rounds because of something else – something abdominal, muscular tightness in the chest or shoulders, even gastric conditions and post-operative conditions can cause you to flex forwards.
Upper back strengthening assumes you are weak in your upper back muscles…but if your upper is flexing, you could just be pulling against the restriction and never solving the problem.
Ask your physical therapist if something else is forcing your to lean forwards. Sometimes the solution is to strengthen but other times it is stretching or changing coordination. Sometimes you are born with a kyphosis.
In the end, you need to solve the reason why your posture is the way that it is.
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Thank you for your quick reply. I was given the upper back exercises by my physical therapist. I have been doing the exercises for 2 months already. It is supposed to eventually pull my rotated shoulders back into position and help me stand up straighter as my upper back muscle gets stronger. (I am now using the blue theraband. I started with the red then moved to the green theraband.)
When I read your article I thought that if I can lift up my rib cage that it could help the process along. When I tighten my abs and lift up my rib cage, I notice that my shoulders move back a little; and I can more easily feel my upper back muscle move when I do my exercise in this position.
I only just discovered my ability to lift my rib cage using my tightened abs. I am hoping that this will help me. What do you think?
(I have only had this upper back problem for less than a year because when it first started, I had a lot of pain. The physical therapist mobilized it and had me do the strengthening exercises. He said it takes time. I sat in front of the computer hunched over previously before I got the upper back pain. In addition, I had costochondritis and I sat with ice applied to my chest hunched over. I had this condition for a few months before the back pain started. I guess that contributed to my upper back weakness.
Kim
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Hi Kim. Contracting your abs and lifting your rib cage up don’t go together in a classical sort of way. Your abs tend to pull your rib cage down, not up.
Again, not specifically about you, but if someone has kyphosis, I want to know if it is structural or postural, if there are tight/shortened abdominals to lengthen or loosen, if there are any other issues that need addressing.
The costochondritis is good info. May have contributed some extra strain which led to pain.
It is tough to help via a blog. You really have to find someone who can explain things clearly to you and why you have to do certain exercises. 2 months is enough time if you are diligent you should see results by now. Has it improved at all?
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very interesting article. thanks for the videos. Can you provide an instructional video on how my rib cage ought to guide me to a better posture?
briefly about me: slight kyphosis-type/rounding to upper back but plenty of muscle so certainly not weak.
i also have flat feet and until I read your article I gave it very little afterthought. i’m constantly focusing on scapular retraction, and trying to keep my thoracic spine mobile but perhaps I’m
overlooking a key problem.
lastly I recently picked up a crossover symmetry hiit kit to adress left shoulder (impingement type discomfort). it’s exposed some immobility in certain ‘upward’ motions of my mid back but is starting to feel slightly better. and prior to obtaining this system I never trained both sides…so that’s my final advice to anyone reading: train both sides to address/avoid imbalances and treat as a system not a component.
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Hi
I have just spent six weeks at physio for a very painful shoulder. I have been told that I have a posture problem , a neck problem and this is contributing to the shoulder pain. The shoulder is also degenerative?? I was told that I had to strengthen all the muscles round the rotator cuff and that it could take years to correct, however when I explained that the exercises were giving me pain the first physio got stroppy and suggested a second opinion. The second physio seemed to take a lot more time and discovered the neck problem and I felt better served by her but again when I said that the exercises were leaving me painful she suggested referring me to orthopaedics. While I wait I have to continue the exercises. I also go to a one hour workout twice a week. This is part of fitness after having cardio stents put in so I need to go to this workout but I find that I am putting it off due to shoulder pain.
So my question is how do we find someone who believes like you (not pulling shoulders back) when the whole basis of NHS treatment seems to be based on this ?
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Thanks for the question Frank. Sorry to hear of your troubles.
Firstly, you should check again (ask) about pain during exercise. I don’t like shoulder pain patients doing exercises in pain because the body doesn’t learn new patterns when in pain and the shoulder sounds like it desperately needs new patterns.
Ask them to do their muscle strength tests and find a position where it gets better. Shoulders back usually makes things worse. Show them that.
Show then this article/blogpost – get ten to read it during your appointment time while you do their exercises. Print it out for them.
NHS is hard – you get what you get. It is a lottery 😦
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Hi Antony…thank you for your article.
I am an overweight 50 year old female, in the process of losing weight ( 1 stone in 8 weeks so steady away) my problem is I don’t have any back pain but I can feel myself “falling forward” and shoulders feel more rounded. I was thinking about buying a back brace to pull myself upright but I saw that you don’t reccomend them usually.
Do you think one would work for me?
Thank you
Sharron
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Hi sharron. Thanks for the posting your question.
Basically a back brace will only hold you up so far. Initially you will appreciate the fact that it feels so awkward and reminds you to correct your posture but you will then get used to the brace and it won’t be useful anymore.
If you have large breasts pulling your forwards, a brace won’t really help – a supportive bra would be better.
Developing your posture, strength and endurance is always a good thing to do.
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Thank you Antony, yes I do but never had a problem with them before….however I have been exercising at the gym 3/4 times a week (treadmill mostly so high impact) so the supportive bra makes sense 😀 the time frame fits.
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My thoracic area is too flat. How do I get the curve back?
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Hi Marie. You have to learn how to generate the kyphosis safely. Is there a PT you can ask?
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hello ☺️ I was wondering if you have any “ideal” sleeping postures in mind? Thanks to the 21st century, the hectic life we lead often forces us to catch up on some sleep while in the car/on the bus. Under these circumstances, how do you think we should sit/lie in such a way that we won’t damage our body alignment that much? I acknowledge that the bed is still one of the better places but sometimes we just cannot help sleeping everywhere else… thank you so much!! 🙂
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It is a good question.
My basic answer is “if you wake up feeling good, then it is ok”.
Many factors go into my recommendations but basically it is to try avoid provoking pain. If you don’t have pain, then no problem. If it hurts or is uncountable and you are not drunk or stoned, then the brain will move your body…
…about alignment, in general, consider your next posture to be your best posture…constantly change.
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Well it’s been a long while since I logged in, but nevertheless thank you for your response!
I think it’s not uncommon to wake up with neck aches from prolonged swaying about 😦
What postures should we switch between for better alignment between neck and body?
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All of them! Your next posture is your best posture.
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Hmm, what would constitute ‘all’?
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Any posture is good. Variety is the key. Some postures and positions are better than others for different tasks or situations but none are “bad”.
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I had a car accident in 1995 that left me in a wheelchair. Have been so busy with basic life that my posture has suffered, exacerbated by scoliosis. I tend left, and am constanty straightening up. I have retrained my brain to recognize when I’m not straight, so am constantly trying to get straight, but everytime anyone sees me, I get “sit up straight” so i guess I’m not. Advice would be welcome
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Hi karyn. I hope you can appreciate that i can’t give you specific advice. Have you sought help and strategies from a physiotherapist/physical therapist?
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Hello,
One of my new year’s resolution is to work on my posture since I’ve developed broad shoulders as a result. I purchased a back support memory foam for my office chair and have been using it for a couple of months now. How effective are these support cushions and is there a particular kind you might recommend?
Thanks!
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Hi Tally,
I’m sorry, why have you developed broad shoulders – as a result of what?
Back support cushions are for comfort.
The best posture is your next posture – change is good. I have used the cheapest towels and cushions to the expensive memory foam and everything in between. Bottom line is that there is no one perfect posture but better positions that you have to keep moving to throughout the day.
Cheers!
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Hi antony,
I don’t mean to cause any offence to you blog, in fact it was very informative and I’m probably making only myself look bad here, but what exactly is it that we must do in order to improve posture.
As far as I understood from your blog we should simply tilt our rib cage?
Im really in need of posture improvement and would appreciate if you could maybe suggest 1 or 2 excursuses to improve posture for good.
Great blog once again.
thanks!
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Hi Jake,
I’m not offended.
Part of what I am trying to teach is that the angle of your rib cage/thorax is critical and just pulling your shoulders back won’t change your rib cage position.
There are many contributing factors to good posture.
Why do you believe you are “really in need of posture improvement”?
As for improving your posture for good…that will never happen. It isn’t like you fix it and then that’s the end of it. You have to address all the components that have led to your current posture, work on those restrictions and lack of control and then keep training them to stay there.
Therefore, I don’t give “exercises” for posture because it is simply a way of life. Every now and then, check in on how you are in your posture. When you do something, check what your posture is like.
It isn’t a sexy solution or what sells lots of books but it is the truth.
1. Get into position (Sternum over Pubic Bone in most people) with the least amount of tension and effort required to maintain it
2. Address restrictions and control excessive movement
3. Train and retrain until you get it right for as many different positions as you can
Cheers
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Hi again antony,
Thanks for the quick response. I have reason to believe that my poor posture is contributing to the nerve pain i experience whilst serving in tennis. I feel many knots on my right shoulder blade, my rotator cuff is very inflexible and i have resonating pain in the bicep and upper forearm muscles.
I have been advised that this pain originated from bad posture.
Ive had this pain in my arm for years and since i havent yet done anything about my posture Im naturally thinking that posture is a large part of the problem.
Ive had temporary healing (about 3 months or so) and, after a while of playing and no treatment, i start to feel sore again. Maybe because i play so much i do in fact require frequent visits to the physio but i just feel as though there is something i could do to once and for all eradicate this pain.
Thanks for any suggestions, and i can obviously appreciate you cant give me personal advise since you havent seen me.
Jake
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Thanks antony,
To explain my situation briefly, i am a serios tennis player (6-7 days a week) and i have for many years now experienced a debilitating pain in my forearm and bicep that resonates from the interior elbow joint nerve. I feel many knots on my shoulder blade muscles and my rotator cuff muscles are very inflexible. My nerves are short because i frequently do nerve flossing and i have limited range of movement.
I was advised that posture may be the reason or at least a major contributing factor in my recurrent arm pain.
I did experience a 3 month period where i played with no pain at all after some intense treatment.
But it came back. Maybe, because i play so much, i do indeed require frequent visits to the physio but i just feel as though there is something i could do once and for all to sort this problem out.
I appreciate the fact that you cant give me personal advise because you have never seen me but have you got any suggestions for me? Does this sound like something you commonly encounter in sport players.
Thanks
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Hi Antony,
Great article and great blog. I’m getting a lot out of it. I have a couple of female PT clients that are very over weight, carrying much of their weight around their hips (think of very plump pears). Both clients have similar issues, which I suspect are linked to carrying excess weight in the hip region for a very long period. Starting from the bottom up, both clients tend to stand with their feet pointing out (like Peter Pan) and struggle to place and hold their feet squarely when in a split squat stance. They both have poor gluteal control (indicated by the knees rolling in on a parallel BW squat). Naturally both will excessively point their toes out in a parallel squat despite corrections (feels weird to the other extent when “it hurts” although the pain can’t be described by the client – I suspect it is uncomfortable, not pain and the client doesn’t understand the difference between the two feelings). Both have poor strength and body awareness as a whole. Shoulders often roll forward, but I suspect that is habitual, poor awareness and a lack of confidence more than lack of strength. Like your article mentions, I really believe they just don’t think about their posture at all during the day therefore it is constantly less than ideal.
My question is, where do I start to begin to improve their posture? I’m hesitant to have either client continue to complete any type of squat if they can’t start the movement with the most ideal posture to begin with. Your theories would be most welcome
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Hi Susie – I thought I had replied to this – If I have, I apologise for replying again!
1. Ideally, they should be seen by a physiotherapist for a full body assessment to identify the primary contributing factors.
2. Moving safely is hard to describe on the internet. I don’t mind people in less-than-ideal positions…just make sure they are safe. If they report “pain”, then go with that…as they get better, it won’t be painful.
3. Where do you start? It is the same as eating an elephant…one bite at a time. Just pick on one thing and work on it…the trick is to pick the one thing that makes lots of other things better.
Thanks for the question 🙂
Cheers
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This is utter nonsense. There’s many different reasons you can have a collapse of the chest where your shoulders slump and round. As an athlete myself i see far to many times where people have overly developed chests, front deltoids and over developed abs. Meanwhile their back is almost in a state of atrophy. Having a balanced body IS the key to having good posture. Nothing more nothing less.
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Hi Rob.
For sure.
However, telling someone to pull their shoulders back is not normal and shouldn’t be so active to hold a passive position.
But it is up to you. It is not utter nonsense. Let’s put it to the test. Do what the article says, show me on video and let’s discuss it.
Cheers
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I’ve always been complimented on my posture, always asked if I was in the army. I was always proud of my military posture, shoulders back, head high. Well……for years I’ve been having neck and shoulder tightness and never-ending sinus pressure and headaches, crazy sinus headaches. YEARS!! I work out regularly and dont smoke so I could never figure out what my sinus issue was. After many Dr. visits, nasal sprays, pills, saunas, steam rooms, heavy leg workouts, light leg workouts, tears, I’m at the end of my rope. A buddy at the gym asked if I do any core exercises, I do not. That got me thinking about my posture and low and behold…your posture affects your sinuses. Bringing my shoulders forward for even just the past ten minutes is life changing. Its gonna be a tough road changing my posture after 43 years.
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That’s great news Greg.
You are looking for the goldlocks zone – don’t pull back too much, don’t pull forwards too much. Get it just right 🙂
Cheers
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How does this solve the problem? I get how you’re not meant to pull your shoulders back like crazy, but in my opinion it will do better things for you in the long run than having drooping, rounded shoulders when you’re lifting, etc. Maybe you’re weaker because you haven’t used the right muscles in your entire life? It’s all about balance – the photo of the guy pulling his shoulders back is OVER-exaggerating the ideal posture – nobody with great posture looks like that! Imagine how ridiculous a pro athlete will look training with forward shoulders – that looks weak.
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Hi Chris. Pulling the shoulders back causes lots of problems. I see people everyday that I have to correct because they have this false belief they need to have “good posture”.
Basically, if you set your posture via your spine and pelvis right first, you can then move into developing your muscles better. The scapulae just sit on the rib cage so getting it positioned better will help.
As you say, it is all about balance…so solve the reason why you have to pull your shoulders back.
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Did you actually read the whole blog post mate?
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Thanks for sharing the info, it was very helpful; Jesus Christ Bless! 🙂
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Hey, great site. What have you got for strengthening the rhomboids?
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Lots. But what has that got to do with posture?😉
Just exercise holding good posture and the shoulders in the right position and ALL the muscles that go into having a good posture will get exercised.
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As someone pointed out an poorly developed back is often the problem with sloping shoulders.
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Ok. What did you learn from reading my blog post?
Why is it that some people have good posture and they don’t go to the gym or do exercises for their back?
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If you count the scapula as part the shoulder then it can’t just passively sit on top of the chest. The rhomboids, for one, are quite active on the scapula – which is why I asked about them. I’d have to disagree that good posture is obtainable without work of some kind – for the vast majority some form of exercise.
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You are right. But the shoulder girdle which is the scapula, humerus and clavicle hangs onto the body via the sternoclavicular joint.
As for muscular support, there are the traps which are far more substantial than the rhomboids, levator scapulae, pec minor, serrated anterior and little known omohyoid which help connect the scapula to the thorax (upper body). Why just focus on the rhomboids?
Good spinal posture is the first step to getting the shoulders in the right place. If you want to exercise, as I stated above, keep a good posture and the body will sort out what muscles to use to achieve what you want.
Just blindly doing an exercise because you think a stronger muscle will make your posture improve doesn’t work.
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I’d have to disagree that there’s anything more substantial than the rhomboids when it comes to retracting the scapulae. Without strength there you have ‘wings’ and subsequent sloping shoulders. Good spinal posture can’t override a tense chest and weak back.
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That’s your opinion and you are entitled to it.
If you know so much, why ask me? What is your qualification?
Rhomboids retract and downward my rotate the scapula which causes problems. Compare the rhomboids to the traps which are important to the functioning of the shoulder overhead along with serratus anterior.
Rhomboid, pec minor and levator scap work together to downward my rotate the scap which is fine during function but not ideal at rest.
I just find what you can do and can’t do and fill in the gaps. Winging scaps are usually from weakness of serratus anterior, not weakness of rhomboids.
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Sadly opinions are all there are. Medical science seems quite uninterested in what a good posture is and how to attain it. At least that’s what my research has found. Thanks.
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In the end, there is no one perfect posture. Just match the posture to the task. The results of testing will tell the story. People love to build all sorts of explanations but in the end, the best posture is your next posture.
Good luck Bud. Beware those that come down hard with “you must” type of ideas 🙂
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Hi wonder if you could give me some advice…I had a cycle accident some 4 weeks ago and got quite a bad acromioclavicular strain(typical lump on shoulder) rightly or wrongly I competed in a road race 6 days later without a problem (I think!). I am trying not to aggravate the recovery process but feel I should be doing some exercises ? It does not hurt to do anything at a low height level and I have been advised not to strain effort at lifting or repetitive high reaches even though reaching up does not hurt. My hobby is playing drums (sat down) and I wonder if doing some light drum practice is ok . My wife has also been telling me for years my posture is poor and that I slouch forward most of the time so I have been trying to put my shoulder blades back more but having read your article I am not sure about this nor do I now think buying a shoulder brace would be a good idea ?
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Hi Carl. That is a tough question. You really need to go see someone. My general rule is that if it doesn’t hurt AND you can do the movement properly, then it is ok BUT sometimes that rule is inappropriate.
I would check things out with a PT and get a clear diagnosis. Letting a possible sprain (I am guessing an AC joint sprain) get stiff then exercising after 3-6 weeks might be conservative but it works.
I hope that helps
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Antony thanks for the quick response I am away from home for five weeks now so no chance of seeing my PT but will see him on my return . In the meantime I will do some light excercise and some light work on the drums and see how it goes . I have previously noticed I have been subconsciously not using my injured arm as a result it’s felt stiffer and muscle pain seems to have gone into my neck but when I use it as normally as I can the stiffness goes as does the neck pain so I will use the arm as normally as I can if that makes sense .
Finally on another note all together in relation to helping to prevent pain in various parts of the body in particular back pain I read an article a few years back about salt and water ….essentially it stressed that the argument about too much salt being bad for you is not all it appears and that providing you are drinking enough water both are absolutely essential for our bodies …. Indeed the whole article premise had the conclusion that if people drank the right amount of water with the right salt intake it prevents many body aches and pains especially back aches … I just wondered what your views are …perhaps worth a septet ate discussion thread.
Once again thanks for your advice
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No problem. Moving as normally as possible is always a good thing provided it doesn’t cause pain or other problems (as a general rule)
As for salt intake and water intake, my rules are simple. Drink to thirst. Eat real food. The dietary association in your country will have the recommended salt intake you need. Most people eat enough salt via processed food.
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Thank you for this article – very informative and helpful 🙂
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Hello, I’m 18 years old and I have a stooping back. It looks very bad and people keep saying me to straighten my back ,I do try and keep my back straight as far as possible but still when I see in mirror I think I’m growing fat around shoulders and tht gives a very bad look.Is there any workout or exercise to reduce that excess muscle/fat ! Pls help
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Hi. It is hard to help you like this. Have you tried seeing someone near where you live?
General advice would be to learn how to exercise properly – that usually helps the most
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My right should seems to drop further forward than my left. I also find that my torso bends or curves to the right when I do Body Attack or ab work. I also find that my weight shifts to the right when I am standing up and I constantly have to readjust. I have anterior pelvic tilt to which seems to be more prominent following back work outs. My upper torso also seems to twist to the right. I know that sounds like a lot and I am happy to answer any follow up questions. Thank you for your help.
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hi Xander…what is your question?
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